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Search - "transpilers"
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29-year veteran here. Began programming professionally in 1990, writing BASIC applications for an 8-bit Apple II+ computer. Learned Pascal, C, Clipper, COBOL. Ironic side-story: back then, my university colleagues and I used to make fun of old COBOL programmers. Fortunately, I never had to actually work with the language, but the knowledge allowed me to qualify for a decent job position, back in '92.
For a while, I worked with an IBM mainframe, using REXX and EXEC2 scripting languages for the VM/SP operating system. Then I began programming for the web, wrote my first dynamic web applications with cgi-bin shell and Perl scripts. Used the little-known IBM Net.Data scripting language. I finally learned PHP and settled with it for many, many years.
I always wanted to be a programmer. As a kid I dreamed of being like Kevin Flynn, of TRON - create world famous videogames and live upstairs my own arcade place! Later on, at some point, I was disappointed, I questioned my skills, I thought I should do more, I let other people's expectations make feel bad. Then I finally realized I actually enjoy a quieter, simpler life. And I made peace with it.
I'm now like the old programmers I used to mock 30 years ago. There's so much shit inside my brain. And everything seems so damn complex these days. Frameworks, package managers, transpilers, layers and more layers of code. I try to keep up. And the more I learn, the more it seems I don't know.
Sometimes I feel tired. Yet, I still enjoy creating things and solving problems with programming. I still have fun learning. And after all these years, I learned to be proud of my work, even if it didn't turn out to be as glamorous as in the movies.30 -
Modern web frontend is giving me a huge headache...
Gazillion frameworks, css preprocessors, transpilers, task runners, webpack, state management, templating, Rxjs, vector graphics,async,promises, es6,es7,babel,uglifying,minifying,beautifying,modules,dependecy injection....
All this for programming apps that happen to run inside browsers on a protocol which was designed to display simple text pages...
This is insanity. It cannot go on like this for long. I pray for webasm and elm to rescue me from this chaos.
I work now as a fullstack dev as my first job but my next job is definitely going to be backend/native stuff for desktop or mobile. It seems those areas are much less crazy.10 -
Is it just me who sees this? JS development in a somewhat more complex setting (like vue-storefront) is just a horrible mess.
I have 10+ experience in java, c# and python, and I've never needed more than a a few hours to get into a new codebase, understanding the overall system, being able to guess where to fix a given problem.
But with JS (and also TS for that matter) I'm at my limits. Most of the files look like they don't do anything. There seems to be no structure, both from a file system point of view, nor from a code point of view.
It start with little things like 300 char long lines including various lambdas, closures and ifs with useless variables names, over overly generic and minified method/function names to inconsistent naming of files, classes and basically everything else.
I used to just set a breakpoint somewhere in my code (or in a compiled dependency) wait this it is being hit and go back and forth to learn how the system state changes.
This seems to be highly limited in JS. I didn't find the one way to just being able to debug, everything that is. There are weird things like transpilers, compiler, minifiers, bablers and what not else. There is an error? Go f... yourself ...
And what do I find as the number one tipp all across the internet? Console.log?? are you kidding me, sure just tell me, your kidding me right?
If I would have to describe the JS world in one word, I would use "inconsistency". It's all just a pain in the ass.
I remember when I switcher from VisualStudio/C# to Eclipse/Java I felt like traveling back in time for about 10 years. Everyting seemd so ... old-schoolish, buggy, weird.
When I now switch from java to JS it makes me feel the same way. It's all so highly unproductive, inconsistent, undeterministic, cobbled together.
For one inconveinience the JS communinity seems to like to build huge shitloads of stuff around it, instead of fixing the obvious. And noone seems to see that.
It's like they are all blinded somehow. Currently I'm also trying to implement a small react app based on react-admin. The simplest things to develop and debug are a nightmare. There is so much boilerplate that to write that most people in the internet just keep copying stuff, without even trying to understand what it actually does.
I've always been a guy that tries to understand what the fuck this code actuall does. And for most of the parts I just thing, that the stuff there is useless or could be done in a way more readable way. But instead, all the devs out there just seem to chose the "copy and fix somehow-ish" way.
I'm all in for component-izing stuff. I like encapsulation, I'm a OOP guy by heart. But what react and similar frameworks do is just insane. It's just not right (for some part).
Especially when you have to remember so much stuff that is just mechanics/boilerplate without having any actual "business logical function".
People always say java is so verbose. I don't think it is, there is so few syntax that it almost reads like a prose story. When I look at JS and TS instead, I'm overwhelmed by all the syntax, almost wondering every second line, what the actual fuck this could mean. The boilerplate/logic ration seems way to off ..
So it really makes me wonder, if all you JS devs out there are just so used to that stuff, that you cannot imagine how it could be done better? I still remember my C# days, but I admin that I just got used to java. So I can somehow understand that all. But JS is just another few levels less deeper.
But maybe I'm just lazy and too old ...4 -
Just realized:
We got to a point where I transpile typescript to react to es6 to plain es5. Just so that the browser could compile the code to bytes.
Sort of ridiculous. It's like translating a book from English to French to Spanish to Russian just so that we could create a Slavic interpretation of the book.3 -
I'm shitting there hammering out some code butchering some real problems when I suddenly realise I'm surrounded. I look around and yes it's the bloody committee.
The committee is what I call the rest of the department and it is dominated by the old guard which comprises of the programmers that have been around for longer.
None of the old guard can program particularly well but because they had been around the longest they'd all grown senior. The committee had free reign but anyone else doing anything differently has to get approval from the committee.
The only way to code otherwise was to copy and paste existing code then to primarily rename things. If anyone did anything that hadn't been seen before then it would have to be approved by the committee. Individual action was not permitted unless you were old guard.
I swept my headphones away expecting it to be something unimportant. It was.
First things first they announce. We're going to add extraneous commas to the last element of all possible lists separated by comma including parameters or so they say. Ask but why so I do.
Because the language now supports it. They added support for it so it must be the right way someone proclaimed. Does it? I didn't realise we were waiting for it. Why do we want it though?
Didn't you hear? It's all over the blogosphere. It massively improves merge requests. But how I ask?
Five minutes later I grow tired of the chin stroking, elbow harnessing, slanted gazes into the yonder and occasionally hearing maybe its because and ask if they mean when you for example add an element the last element registers as changed from adding a comma. Turns out that's all it is.
How often do we see that tiny distraction and isn't it pointless to make the code ugly just for a tiny transient reduction in diff noise I ask. Everyone's stumped. This went on and on and got worse and worse. But it makes moving things around easy half of them say in unison like the bunch of slobs that they are. I mean really. It doesn't make expanding and contracting statements from multiline to single line easy and it's such a stupid thing. Is that all they do all day? Move multi-line method parameters up and down all day? If their coding conventions weren't totally whack they wouldn't have so many multiline method prototypes with stupid amounts of parameters with stupidly long types and names. They all use the same smart IDE which can also surely handle fixing the last comma and why is that even a concern given all the other outrageously verbose and excessive conventions for readability?
But you know what, who cares, fine, whatever. Lets put commas all over the shop and then we can all go to the pub and woo the ladies with how cool and trendy we are up to date with all the latest trends and fashions then we go home with ten babes hanging off each arm and get so laid we have to take a sick day the following to go to the STD clinic. Make way for we are conformists.
But then someone had to do it. They had to bring up PSR. Yes, another braindead committee that produces stupid decisions. Should brackets be same line or next line, I know, lets do both they decided. Now we have to do PSR and aren't allowed to use sensible conventions.
But why, I ask after explaining it's actually quite useful as a set of documents we can plagiarise as a starting point but then modify but no, we have to do exactly what PSR says. We're all too stupid apparently you see. Apparently we're not on their level. We're mere mortals. The reason or so I'm told, is so that anyone can come in and is they know PSR coding styles be able to read and write the code. That's not how it works. If you can't adjust to a different style, a more consistent style, that's not massively bizarre or atypical but rather with only minor differences from standard styles, you're useless. That's not even an argument, it's a confession that you've got a lump of coal where your brain's supposed to be.
Through all of this I don't really care because I long ago just made my own code generators or transpilers that work two ways and switch things between my shit and their shit but share my wisdom anyway because I'm a greedy scumbag like that.
Where the shit really hit the fan is that I pointed out that PSR style guide doesn't answer all questions nor covers all cases so what do we do then. If it's not in PSR? Then we're fucked.4 -
The proliferation of JS transpilers is a hard proof that many people don't like javascript as it is3
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I feel like IE is an example of a deep rooted demon beast that spawns fucktarded bloat transpilers like BABEL.
When companies try to invent their own wheels, or do their own thing is when the pits of developer hell start to spawn such fucking convoluted fucktarded bullshit.
Abstract to Design:
I'm trying to think of a world where things are standardized, as boring as it sounds... Imagine if companies weren't so fucktarded with greedy smoke and mirrors, and they all contributed to making a single product standardized and workable, and improve on that product... Like a physics "Standard model" but for each product invented.
But no... here we are... 20 million ways to accomplish one similar task, with 20 million different designs, with majority adhering to their own flaws... or planned obsolecence... 10 million booby traps of consumer remorse.
Why do we do this as a society just to make some bastard company's profit margin go up, so they can keep competing in the "free market" of fuck all fuckery?
I get it.. yea... innovation... sure..
but sometimes innovation is just a means to and end of sanity, especially when they are proprietary, and especially when that proprietary shit turns to, well... shit!
In a perfect world, things will be designed open-sourced, compatible, and improved upon without "breaking" changes... but this is virtually impossible without standardization of the VERY fundamental components. But then those components can be improved, and might be smaller/lighter/more efficient by design, and simply wont work with the old versions without drastic "TRANSPILATION"
I suppose this is the way it is always going to be... Neverending stream of design "improvements". I suppose being a developer in todays world is a bittersweet existence... unless you're just trying to make ends meet... in that case. I think I might be in hell.
Take a look at web-dev today with all the "improvements" ... it's literally turned into a jungle of FUCK MY LIFE. A giant dick waiving contest with all these dicks colliding against each other in cluster fuck bombardment.
God help us all.... and now back to coding.4 -
I just realized: People bitching about JS standard library, bundle size, need to use polyfills etc - is useless IMO. We need to start viewing transpilers as compilers and overall JS ecosystem like we are developing something in ActionScript Flash/Java Applet and exporting it for use inside browsers. And forget about "bad parts" of standard clean JS overall. See clean JS like it's as bad as it was in the past. (because without polyfills you still don't have most of the major es6 features in the IE browsers)
In the past we needed Flash plugins, Java plugins for applets, and they had size way larger than average JS bundle nowadays.
What you think?2 -
Filthy Pollo: import {globalStore} from '../main.js'
Filthy Pollo: is that unstandard javascript?
Filthy Pollo: it makes me think it's from webpack
Filthy Pollo: unforgiving...
Ron Chi: i wont answer these questions again
Ron Chi: i already told u chrome supports imports its been a few months
Ron Chi: modules are evaled once, so if u have some state living in ur module if u reimport it ull just get that same state
Ron Chi: myModule.js - const myShit = { 'a': 'eh?' }; export { myShit };
Filthy Pollo: https://i.imgur.com/1X4Taik.png
Filthy Pollo: gg
Ron Chi: index.js - import { myShit } from './myModule.js'
Filthy Pollo: import and export are unexcepted token
Ron Chi: import needs to be used at the top of a file, before any other code
Filthy Pollo: https://i.imgur.com/myrrIMx.png
Filthy Pollo: Im going to assume import and export aren't supported in the browser
Ron Chi: because ur squigly line in ur editor?
Filthy Pollo: This feature is only implemented natively in Safari and Chrome at this time. It is implemented in many transpilers, such as the Traceur Compiler, Babel or Rollup.
Ron Chi: https://github.com/paulirish/...
Ron Chi: actually i dont think its handled properly by babel, webpack handles it
Filthy Pollo: what the fuck why use import and export that wont work in other browsers like firefox, edge, etc. ?
Ron Chi: because other browsers are slow
Ron Chi: its still standard
Filthy Pollo: your answer is not really professional
Ron Chi: ?
Ron Chi: why because its my fault that other browsers are still working on it
Ron Chi: they fought over implementation details forever, than it has to be implemented properly before shipping it
Filthy Pollo: Im blaming the people who are still using export and import in the browsers
Ron Chi: u wont be using modules without transpiling without some limited market for a couple years, otherwise ull still be using rollup / system.js / webpack
Filthy Pollo: obviously webpack
Ron Chi: thats up to you, it seems the google ppl use rollup
Ron Chi: but most of the community chose webpack
Ron Chi: angular 2 uses system.js internally i think
Filthy Pollo: Firefox 54 – behind the dom.moduleScripts.enabled setting in about:config.
Edge 15 – behind the Experimental JavaScript Features setting in about:flags.
Filthy Pollo: nobody wants to be bothered to change settings in flags
Filthy Pollo: the developers who use experimental features are weirdos as hell
Filthy Pollo: the joke is when they use experimental feature for production and force them to download chrome
Filthy Pollo: Monopoly as hell
Filthy Pollo: Corruption of User Experience -
If you were to start making a lightweight, fast, multiplatform client app, architecturally clean and simple, with as little of the JS(style) libraries and packages and transpilers and weird convoluted and/or unpleasant syntax trends like JS or flutter...
ideally (or at least minimally) something at least as straightforward as making a WinForms app in C#
...what language/tool/platform/tech stack would you choose?
...asking for a friend with totally not an absolutely cool idea that needs to exist.11 -
I want to build a code transpiler/ transformer as a side project I looked around but I can't find where to start.
Does anyone have any useful info on this ?1