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Search - "contact list"
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When I worked for an online dating app, at one point we had the ridiculous idea to try to take a popular LinkedIn feature and convert it to a dating app feature in order to capitalize off of the success LinkedIn had with it.
The feature was LinkedIn endorsements. The idea was to allow the dating app users to get endorsements from people in their contacts lists on certain traits/features from a defined list (ex. Funny, smart, etc.). It wasn’t a terrible idea on the surface, but the way we planned to execute on it was insane and everyone knew it was going to fail. To avoid any controversy all of the endorsable terms were watered down to the point where no one would ever find using them/asking their friends for endorsements to be any fun. And the worst part was how we planned to get people to ask their friends for endorsements - management wanted us to build a contact list importer and just spam email contacts with “please endorse me” emails. The whole thing was ridiculous.
No one, including myself, wanted to build the feature/spam tool but management really wanted it so we had to build it. Like expected, it failed very quickly when it was clear no one cared about getting their real life friends to endorse them on some dating app, and the spam contacts took was ineffective and... spammy.10 -
My most awkward recruiter interaction?
Just graduated college and got 'suckered' by an programming position ad that turned out to be a recruiting company. It was fine since they charge the company for their services and not me.
After a couple of weeks of waiting (they initially promised I would/could have at least 3 interviews a week, which hadn't happened.) I decided to start looking again on my own, found a position, and I was hired.
About two months later I get a phone call:
<skipping the pleasantries>
R: "I see you are working for D, congratulations. I've started the paperwork for our reimbursement."
Me: "Reimburse for what? I found that job on my own."
R: "D is one of the companies we work with and when we submitted your resume, they told us you were already hired."
Me: "And?"
R: "And you signed a contract and now its time to pay. The fees only start at $500"
Me: "Not me. I have the contract, it states, in the second paragraph, I am not responsible for any hiring fees."
<couple of seconds of silence>
R: "Yes, but that is only if we negotiated the contact. Since you went behind our back, we couldn't start the process"
Me: "And?"
R: "And its a breach of contract."
Me: "I'm not a lawyer, I don't understand what you're saying. It says right here on the contract I signed, I don't pay any fees. No where does it say I'm not allowed to look for a job on my own. Right?"
R: "Um..yea..right..right...but you were hired by one of our contracted companies."
Me: "No way I would have known that. Maybe you should have set up an interview long before now."
<R is getting pretty angry at this point>
R: "I'm sure we gave you list of companies we work with. Contacting those companies is a breach of contract. Unless you want our lawyers to get involved, the fee is only $500. Failing to honor your side of the agreement and we'll be forced to contact your employer and begin garnishing your wage until the fee is paid. You don't want that, do you?"
Me: "There was no list and I am allowed to find a job on my own. Again, I'm not responsible for you not setting up an interview so do whatever you think you can do. Have a good night"
<I hang up>
About a week later..
Boss: "Got a phone call from XYZ Recruiting requesting a wage garnishment. Do you know anything about that?"
<I explain the situation>
Boss: "Oh good grief. We've worked with them a couple of times and we contact them on an individual basis for new hires. You're fine"
Me: "You're not going to garnish my paycheck?"
Boss: "No no no, that's not how this works. He was probably trying to scare you into paying their crazy fees."
Me: "What if they get their lawyers involved? I don't want to cause any trouble"
Boss: "Ha ha...XYZ Recruiting is a couple of guys in an office and we have lawyers on the 3rd floor who eat and breath this shit. They know that and you won't hearing from them again."5 -
!!privacy
!!political
I had a discussion with a coworker earlier.
I owed him for lunch the other day, and he suggested I pay him back either with cash (which I didn't have), Venmo, or just by him lunch the next time (which I ended up doing).
I asked about Venmo, and he said it was like paypal, but always free. that sounded a bit off -- because how are they in business if it's always free? -- so I looked it up, and paid special attention to their privacy policy.
The short of it: they make money by selling your information. That's worth far more than charging users a small fee when sending $5 every few weeks. Sort of what I expected when I heard "always free," but what surprised me is just how much they collect. (In retrospect, I really shouldn't have been surprised at all...)
Here's an incomplete list:
* full name, physical address, email, DoB, SSN (or other government IDs, depending on country)
* Complete contact list (phone numbers, names, photos)
* Browser/device fingerprint
* (optional) Your entire Facebook feed and history
* (optional) all of your Facebook friends' contact info
* Your Twitter feed
* Your FourSquare activity
(The above four ostensibly for "fraud prevention")
* GPS data
* Usage info about the actual service
* Other users' usage info (e.g. mentioning you)
* Financial info (the only thing not shared with third parties)
Like, scary?
And, of course, they share all of this with their parent company, PayPal. (The privacy policy does not specify what PayPal does with it, nor does it provide any links that might describe it, e.g. PayPal's "info-shared-by-third-parties" privacy policy)
So I won't be using Venmo. ever.
I mentioned all of this to my coworker, and he just doesn't understand. at all. He even asks "So what are they going do with that, send me ads? like they already do?"
I told him why I think it's scary. Everything from them freely selling all of your info, to someone being able to look through your entire online life's history, to being able to masquerade around as you, to even reproducing your voice (e.g. voice clips collected by google assistant), to grouping people by political affiliations.
He didn't have much to say about any of them, and actually thought the voice thing was really cool. (All I could think of was would happen if the "news" had that ability....) All of his other responses were "that doesn't bother me at all" and/or "using all of these services is so convenient."
but what really got me was his reaction to the last one.
I said, "If you're part of the NRA, for example, you'd be grouped with Republicans. If they sell all of this information, which they do, and they don't really care who buys it or what they do with it... someone could look through the data and very very easily target those political groups."
His response? "I don't have to worry about that. I'm a Democrat, and have always voted Democrat. I'll tell anyone that."
Like.
That's basically saying every non-democrat is someone you should be wary of and keep an eye on. That's saying Democrats are the norm and everyone else is deviant and/or wrong.
and I couldn't say anything after this because... no matter what I said, it would start a political conflict, and would likely end with me being fired (since the owner is also a democrat, and they're very buddy-buddy). "What if they target democrats?" -> "They already do!" or "What if democrats use it against others?" -> "They deserve it for being violent and racist, but we never would" (except, you know, that IRS/tea-party incident for example...)
But like, this is coming from someone who firmly believes conservatives are responsible for all of the violence and looting and rioting and mass shootings in the country. ... even when every single instance has been by committed by democrats. every. single. one.
Just...
jfl;askjfasflkj.
He doesn't understand the need for privacy, and his world view is just... he actually thinks everyone with different beliefs is wrong and dangerous.
I don't even know how to deal with people like this. and with how prevalent this mindset is... coupled with the aforementioned privacy concerns... it's honestly *terrifying.*65 -
Here's the time an Amazon recruiter scheduled a call with me just to tell me I wouldn't be getting the job.
A few years ago, I left Uber after the seemingly non-stop public snafus they were getting themselves into (I have a lot of rants about Uber if anyone is interested, some of them mind-melting). I decided to take a two month break given that my financials looked decent for once and I was tired of 100 hour weeks.
During that time, I of course started perusing the typical job-seeking sites I had remembered from before. Somehow, from one of the profiles I set up, I caught the eye of an Amazon recruiter. They emailed me and I agreed to set up a date and time for an introductory chat.
They already had my CV. They already had my StackOverflow/Github information. This wasn't a technical interview, and the recruiter wasn't part of any of the tech teams. This is important information moving forward.
A few days later, I got the call from the recruiter. He introduced himself as the person from the emails, thanking my for my time, etc.. Things started out pleasant with the smalltalk and whatnot, but then the recruiter said "so I have some concerns about your resume".
Under one of the sections I had a list of things I was skilled with - one of which, regrettably, is PHP. Completely ignoring Java, Javascript, C# and C++ knowledge and all of the other achievements I have with those technologies, the recruiter really wanted to drill me about the PHP.
"Do you work a lot with PHP?"
"No, not anymore - from time to time I have to do something with it but it's not my main language anymore. I know it quite well, though."
"Oh okay well we aren't looking for any PHP roles right now, unfortunately."
"Okay, no problem."
Perhaps I could have said more, but from my end of things, I meant "I don't see a problem here, I don't write a lot of PHP and you don't need a lot of PHP".
After a pause that felt like an hour, the recruiter broke the silence and said "Okay well thanks for your time today, I'm sorry things didn't work out."
Bewildered, I asked which technology stack they were using on the team.
"Not PHP, unfortunately. Thank you for your time." and then an abrupt click.
The recruiter found me himself, looked at my resume (assumably), sought out to contact me, arranged a time for a call, and then called me, just to tell me I wouldn't get the position due to knowing PHP at some point in my career.
Years later, the whole interaction still shocks me. Somewhere in my drafts I have a long letter to the recruiter basically going over my entire career history explaining why his call was incredibly... well, fucking weird. Towards the end of writing it I realized it was more therapeutic for me to deal with whatever it was that just took place and that it probably wouldn't change my odds of working at Amazon.
So yeah. That's the story of the time Amazon set up a recruiting call just to tell me I wouldn't be working for them.9 -
Man, I think we've all gotten way too many of these.
Normally most interactions that I have are through email. Eventually some would try to contact me via phone. These are some:
"Hey! We are calling you from <whatever company name> solutions! (most of them always seem to end on solutions or some shit like that) concerning the Ruby on Rails senior dev opportunity we were talking about via email"
<niceties, how are you doing, similar shit goes here...eventually>
So tell us! how good/comfortable would you say you are with C++?"
Me: I have never done anything serious with c++ and did just use it at school, but because I am not a professional in it I did not list it in my CV, what does it have to do with Rails?
Them: "Oh the applications of this position must be ready to take in additional duties which sometimes happen to be C or C++"
Me: Well that was not anywhere in the offer you sent, it specifically requested a full stack Rails developer that could work with 3 different frontend stacks already and like 4 different databases plus bla bla bla, I did not see c++ anywhere in it. Matter of fact I find it funny, one of the things that I was curious about was the salary, for what you are asking and specifically in the city in which you are asking it for 75k is way too low, you are seriously expecting a senior level rails dev to do all that AND take additional duties with c++? cpp could mean a billion different things"
Them: "well this is a big opportunity that will increase your level to senior position"
Me: the add ALREADY asks for a senior position, why are you making it sound that I will get build towards that level if you are already off the bat asking for seniors only to begin with?
Them: You are not getting it, it is an opportunity to grow into a senior, applicants right now are junior to mid-level
ME: You are all not making any sense, please don't contact me again.
=======
Them: We are looking for someone with 15 years experience with Swift development for mobile and web
Me: What is up with your people not making these requirements in paper? if I knew from the beginning that you people think that Swift is 15 years old I would have never agreed to this "interview"
Them: If you are not interested in that then might we offer this one for someone with 10 years experience as a full stack TypeScript developer.
Me: No, again, check your dates, this is insulting.
===
* For another Rails position
Them: How good are you with Ruby on Rails in terms of Python?
Me: excuse me? Python has nothing to do with Ruby on Rails.
Her (recruiter was a woman) * with a tone of superiority: I have it here that Python is the primary technology that accompanies Rails development.
Me (thinking this was a joke) : What do you think the RUBY part of Ruby on Rails is for? and what does "accompanies Rails development" even means?
Her: Well if you are not interested in using Rails with Python then maybe you can tell us about your experience in using Javascript as the main scripting platform for Rails.
Me: This is a joke, goodbye.
====
To be fair this was years ago when I still didn't know better and test the recruiters during the email part of being contacted. Now a days I feel sorry for everyone since I just say no without even bothering. This is a meme all on itself which no one has ever bothered to review and correct in years for now. I don't know why recruiters don't google themselves to see what people think of their "profession" in order to become better.
I've even had the Java/Javascript stupidity thrown at me by a local company. For that one it was someone from their very same HR department doing the rectuiter, their shop foreman was a friend of the family, did him the service of calling him to let him know that his HR was never going to land the kind of developer they were looking for with the retarded questions they had and sent him a detailed email concerning the correct information they needed for their JAVAscript job which they kept confusing with Java (for some reason in the context of Spring, they literally wanted nothing with Spring, they wanted some junior to do animations and shit like that on their company's website, which was in php, Java was nowhere in this equation)
I think people in web development get the short end of the stick when it comes to retarded recruiters more than anywhere else.3 -
My private Email Account got hacked when I was in school, and they sent out a mail with something along the lines of "hey, you should really use this product to lose weight, it is great" to all of my contacts. Many of them ignored it, some of them called me to inform me about the issue (the worst part was, long after I used 2fa and changed passwords regularly, they still had my name and contact list, so they just made email adresses that looked like mine and continued to send out spam to my contacts). Anyway, one teacher of mine didn't know that this was a scam and was insulted because I regularly sent emails about her losing weight. And as if the whole situaion, which I couldn't do anything about, wasn't bad enough, my parents and I had do have a 1h conversation (which ended up in me explaining how those hacks work, and luckily she understood, but still). Never again. I prefer those fake ms support guys that call me over this every day.7
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!rant && sarcasm
For a long time now I've been trying to convince people to use secure communication. I'm used to getting called "paranoid", but the killer phrase always was (and still is): "Why do you want me to encrypt my communication, I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE, so I don't care who's reading it" - "It's not about hiding something, it's about private stuff staying private" - "Yeah, whatever"
"I have nothing to hide". That always killed the conversation... until I asked them to hand me their phones, unlocked, for 5 minutes.
"No" - "Why? I thought, you had nothing to hide and don't care who's reading it?" - "Uhmmm..."
More and more people around me are popping up in my Signal contact list.
Looks like they suddenly care a lot about private stuff staying private </sarcasm>11 -
!!oracle
I'm trying to install a minecraft modpack to play with a friend, and I'm super psyced about it. According to the modpack instructions, the first step is to download the java8 jre. Not sure if I actually need it or not, but it can download while I'm doing everything else, so I dutifully go to the download page and find the appropriate version. The download link does point to the file, but redirects to a login page instead. Apparently I need an oracle account to download anything on their site. stupid.
So I make an account. It requires my life story, or at least full name and address and phone number. stupid. So my name is now "fuck off" and I live in Hell, Michigan. My email is also "gofuckyourself" because I'm feeling spiteful. Also, for some reason every character takes about 3/4ths of a second to type, so it's very slow going. Passwords also cannot contain spaces, which makes me think they're doing some stupid "security" shenanigans like custom reversible encryption with some 5th grade math. or they're just stupid. Whatever, I make the stupid account.
Afterwards, I try to log in, but apparently my browser-saved credentials are wrong? I try a few more times, try enabling all of the javascripts, etc. No beans. Okay, maybe I can't use it until I verify the email? That actually makes some sense. Fine, I go check the throwaway inbox. No verification email. It's been like five minutes, but it's oracle so they probably just failed at it like everything else, so I try to have them resend the email. I find the resend link, and try it. Every time I enter my email address, though, it either gives me a validation error or a server error. I try a few mores times, and give up. I try to log in again; no dice. Giving up, I go do something else for awhile.
On a whim later, I check for the verification email again. Apparently it just takes bloody forever, but it did show up. Except instead of the first name "Fuck" I entered, I'm now "Andrew", apparently. okay.... whatever. I click the verify button anyway, and to my surprise it actually works, and says that I'm now allowed to use my account. Yay!
So, I go back to the login page (from the download link) and enter my credentials. A new error appears! I cannot use redirects, apparently, and "must type in the page address I want to visit manually." huh? okay, i go to the page directly, and see the same bloody error because of course i do because oracle fucking sucks. So I close the page, go back to the download list, click the link, wait for the login page redirect (which is so totally not allowed, apparently, except it works and manual navigation does not. yay backwards!), and try to log in.
Instead of being presented with an error because of the redirect, it lets me (try to) log in. But despite using prefilled creds (and also copy/pasting), it tells me they're invalid. I open a new tab container, clear the cache (just to be thorough), and repeat the above steps. This time it redirects me to a single signon server page (their concept of oauth), and presents me with a system error telling me to contact "the Administrator." -.- Any second attempts, refreshes, etc. just display the same error.
Further attempts to log in from the download page fail with the same invalid credentials error as before.
Fucking oracle and their reverse Midas touch.10 -
Had a LinkedIn recruiter contact me a few months ago, I usually get one of these a week at minimum and usually more frequent the moment a start a new position. I hate that!
Anyway, story and rant:
The recruiter sent me a position that was pretty good, lots of benefits, not too far to drive, some remote days. With the usual list of responsibilities that they themselves dont know what half of them are but put them on anyway, I would automate those anyway if I wanted to work there.
All looks great, I ask if they can send me more details and the budget they company has for the position.
This was for a Senior position so I thought they would know what industry standard is.
The recruiter replies with a budget: $2000
I actually couldn't believe that they thought that was acceptable amount of money for the amount of responsibilities they wanted this new senior guy to do, no wonder the previous guy left.
I respond and told her that the amount is extremely low for what they want and I dont think they will find someone with the skills they need at that amount. I would be willing to talk for a minimum of $4000 and thats not guaranteed until I can go for a formal interview to find out exactly what the company needs.
The recruiters replay was probably the rudest anyone has ever been to me online, lol! She insists its industry standards and any Senior would be lucky to get such a great paycheck, the company has been in business for years and their developers have always been happy and paid industry standards.
I respond again and tell her that im getting $3800 at this small company where I currently am and if the "international company with clients all over the world" wants to have my skill set why is it that they cant pay premium salaries!? As well as the graphs for my Country on what the current industry standards are for salaries in my industry.
She never replied, but I kept tabs on the company she was recruiting for. They are still looking for a senior dev, its been 8 months now and no one has applied.
I am so happy more developers are standing up for themselves and not taking agencies bullshit with low salaries, crazy overtime and bad technical specs.
Note: Amounts are made up, was just to show comparison.4 -
Recent life lessons:
◆ Do not buy a domain name without obfuscating your contact information, lest you want to be harried by people offering to provide their services to “grow your business”
◆ Do not change descriptions on your most recent experience that’s set to be ongoing on LinkedIn without making note of the “notify your followers” toggle, lest you wish LinkedIn to post on your behalf a message urging people to congratulate you on your new position. A post which you cannae delete. And lo, if you comment upon it urging well-wishers to not comment upon it or offer congratulations as it is not what it appears, witness the lack of good that doth do. Resort to canned response to DMs explaining the situation and urging the well-wisher to learn from your misfortune. (I find it really difficult to not politely respond to folk. It was a good two days of like 50+ messages.)
◆ If you have a career coach that tells you to connect to as many people as possible on LinkedIn and accept connection requests, perhaps just don’t follow that advice. My second career coach was like “That doesn’t even make sense” “I KNOW!” ... I have so many LinkedIn connections. But I cannae just prune the list because it would take for freaking ever to figure out who was who and who I really still wanted to connect with. *sigh* 900+ is too many. And I have over 100 requests I haven’t even gotten around to looking at.22 -
Tl;dr: I do not care. Just read it or fuck off.
A friend of mine who is a paki classmate, as well, had applied for the same "Ausbildung" offer as me half a year ago.
The company is based in Germany, but is working in the US, France, UK, Turkey, China, [...], too.
After 2 interviews, they told us to contact us back within the next week. We have had our interviews on Sundays.
In the list of all candidates I was the second best. The top candidate was my classmate. The third best candidate was a guy who was involved in the last interview with both, me and my paki friend.
The candidates list was not shown to everyone else, but my paki friend.
They wanted to give him the job. [That is a big company who is creating a new dev team and expanding their IT building. Nonetheless they only accept only one candidate.]
My classmate had been given a letter that he had to sign within the same hour he was with the managers. He discussed it and said that he has other offers open and want to compare them first. They gave him a timespan of only 1 day afterwards to sign it.
He told me he is going to decline it and he did.
Normally, I should have been the person who gets the letter to sign to be accepted for the job, but no.
After letting me wait for almost 2 weeks, they sent me an mail (they usually sent ordinary letters to invite me to interviews lol) in which they said that I am unfortunately not taken for the job yada yada yada and that they wish me luck for my future.
Fuck yourselves. How about that?
I was the second best candidate. The best candidate did not want the job yet you fucking morons do this type of shit. You want the best for me?
I want the worse for you. Death to both of you managers who sucked all of my energy, patience and time.
I am really fucking pissed rn21 -
Since this post was too long for devrant's 5k sign limit, I split it in several parts. I will try to make each part comprehensible as a standalone post. This is part one of WHY WOULD I WANT TO WORK WITH YOU? saga. A tale of empathy, competence and me being a dick, even though I didn't really want to be one. The part one is titled: "Bad times, good times". It may or may not have any value. It probably won't be funny.
I dedicate this to every single junior or entry level dev out there, struggling to find a job in their field.
=====
What do you think, how long does it take for junior with 6 months of commercial experience to find a dev job? If your answer was "idk", you're right. If your answer was "3 montths maybe", you're also right. At least this is how long it took for me. I am writing this at 2am, couple of hours after I managed to get employed. I am happy. My employer probably is happy too. My recruiters certainly are. The guy whose offer I had to reject after we were almost ready to sign the contract, on the other hand, isn't. He probably hates me. We'll get to that one post at a time.
Let's move back in time a little bit. It's December 12th, 2019. It is third month after I left my family home. I don't ha0ve a job, I was living first in my older brother's apartment for a month, then I started to rent my own. I have literally no money, I'm in debts. I moved out because reasons that would make up for another couple of posts, and for said reasons I refused to get 'any job just to pay the bills'. You can imagine that I was in pretty bad situation, and my psyche didn't really take that shit too well either. My daily meal was a bowl of rice with a little bit of self-hatred on top. Gourmet.
At that time, my daily routine would consist of practicing music, practicing programming, trying to get a job and surviving. Some of my friends just turned their backs against me. I did a small rework of my contact list as well. It was a *hard* time. I had sent my CV to around a hundred different companies with very little to no response. Some of them required at least bachelor's in IT for their frontend dev. Some of them required experience I didn't have. Some of them just didn't care to answer me. And then that one day happened. Three different people wanted to meet me and talk about internships/job offers. I will share what happened next in next posts, but here's a quick spoiler. I got a job. Yes, I am hyped.
Dear fellow Dev. This is a small reminder. If you're having bad times, just remember that if you focus on what you need to do, you will be just fine. Sometimes it may take days of struggling, sometimes it will take months of eating mostly rice. We all... Most of us have been through this.
Next posts will be less inspirationalstufftelling and more storytelling. Let this post be a setup, a small context to keep in mind upon reading my next stories. Because it is quite important. For me and for the story.3 -
I have a working build!
Application Ally is a tool to help you track your job search. It has contact management, resume builder (or your can upload your own), task list, and some other neat features.
Why? because I was sick of carrying a notebook with me everywhere to keep my research on companies organised. I wanted to see my history with a company quickly and from anywhere. I also wanted to keep better notes on recruiters (I'm sure you understand why)
https://www.applicationally.com
It's only an initial build, but I'd appreciate all feedback, good or bad!15 -
So one of my clients had a different company do a penetrationtest on one of my older projects.
So before hand I checked the old project and upgraded a few things on the server. And I thought to myself lets leave something open and see if they will find it.
So I left jquery 1.11.3 in it with a known xss vulnerability in it. Even chrome gives a warning about this issue if you open the audit tab.
Well first round they found that the site was not using a csrf token. And yeah when I build it 8 years ago to my knowledge that was not really a thing yet.
And who is going to make a fake version of this questionair with 200 questions about their farm and then send it to our server again. That's not going to help any hacker because everything that is entered gets checked on the farm again by an inspector. But well csrf is indeed considered the norm so I took an hour out of my day to build one. Because all the ones I found where to complicated for my taste. And added a little extra love by banning any ip that fails the csrf check.
Submitted the new version and asked if I could get a report on what they checked on. Now today few weeks later after hearing nothing yet. I send my client an email asking for the status.
I get a reaction. Everything is perfect now, good job!
In Dutch they said "goed gedaan" but that's like what I say to my puppy when he pisses outside and not in the house. But that might just be me. Not knowing what to do with remarks like that. I'm doing what I'm getting paid for. Saying, good job, your so great, keep up the good work. Are not things I need to hear. It's my job to do it right. I think it feels a bit like somebody clapping for you because you can walk. I'm getting off topic xD
But the xss vulnerability is still there unnoticed, and I still have no report on what they checked. So I have like zero trust in this penetration test.
And after the first round I already mentioned to the security guy in my clients company and my daily contact that they missed things. But they do not seem to care.
Another thing to check of their to do list and reducing their workload. Who cares if it's done well it's no longer their responsibility.
2018 disclaimer: if you can't walk not trying to offend you and I would applaud for you if you could suddenly walk again.2 -
Contact wants to discuss a list of projects with me next week.
What's the betting that these are unfunded ideas that need code?
I should just check by email, but it's been a while since anyone walked this path with me, so I'm up for some fun.
I see myself taking an advisory role in these projects for equity.
"First thing you need to do is obtain funding for them all. Then get back to me for my insights on next stage. Not sure how to get funding, but I'm not the the 'creative' side of the team."
Ideas aren't worth shit. I have a bunch every day and they are as worthless as yours.
Ideas without execution are like owning a book without reading it.3 -
dev, ~boring
This is either a shower thought or a sober weed thought, not really sure which, but I've given some serious consideration to "team composition" and "working condition" as a facet of employment, particularly in regard to how they translate into hiring decisions and team composition.
I've put together a number of teams over the years, and in almost every case I've had to abide by an assemblage of pre-defined contexts that dictated the terms of the team working arrangement:
1. a team structure dictated to me
2. a working temporality scheme dictated to me
3. a geographic region in which I was allowed to hire
4. a headcount, position tuple I was required to abide by
I've come to regard these structures as weaknesses. It's a bit like the project management triangle in which you choose 1-2 from a list of inadequate options. Sometimes this is grounded in business reality, but more often than not it's because the people surrounding the decisions thrive on risk mitigation frameworks that become trickle down failure as they impose themselves on all aspects of the business regardless of compatibility.
At the moment, I'm in another startup that I have significantly more control over and again have found my partners discussing the imposition of structure and framework around how, where, why, who and what work people do before contact with any action. My mind is screaming at me to pull the cord, as much as I hate the expression. This stems from a single thought:
"Hierarchy and structure should arise from an understanding of a problem domain"
As engineers we develop processes based on logic; it's our job, it's what we do. Logic operates on data derived from from experiments, so in the absence of the real we perform thought experiments that attempt to reveal some fundamental fact we can use to make a determination.
In this instance we can ask ourselves the question, "what works?" The question can have a number contexts: people, effort required, time, pay, need, skills, regulation, schedule. These things in isolation all have a relative importance ( a weight ), and they can relatively expose limits of mutual exclusivity (pay > budget, skills < need, schedule < (people * time/effort)). The pre-imposed frameworks in that light are just generic attempts to abstract away those concerns based on pre-existing knowledge. There's a chance they're fine, and just generally misunderstood or misapplied; there's also a chance they're insufficient in the face of change.
Fictional entities like the "A Team," comprise a group of humans whose skills are mutually compatible, and achieve synergy by random chance. Since real life doesn't work on movie/comic book logic, it's easy to dismiss the seed of possibility there, that an organic structure can naturally evolve to function beyond its basic parts due to a natural compatibility that wasn't necessarily statistically quantifiable (par-entropic).
I'm definitely not proposing that, nor do I subscribe to the 10x ninja founders are ideal theory. Moreso, this line of reasoning leads me to the thought that team composition can be grown organically based on an acceptance of a few observed truths about shipping products:
1. demand is constant
2. skills can either be bought or developed
3. the requirement for skills grows linearly
4. hierarchy limits the potential for flexibility
5. a team's technically proficiency over time should lead to a non-linear relationship relationship between headcount and growth
Given that, I can devise a heuristic, organic framework for growing a team:
- Don't impose reporting structure before it has value (you don't have to flatten a hierarchy that doesn't exist)
- crush silos before they arise
- Identify needed skills based on objectives
- base salary projections on need, not available capital
- Hire to fill skills gap, be open to training since you have to pay for it either way
- Timelines should always account for skills gap and training efforts
- Assume churn will happen based on team dynamics
- Where someone is doesn't matter so long as it's legal. Time zones are only a problem if you make them one.
- Understand that the needs of a team are relative to a given project, so cookie cutter team composition and project management won't work in software
- Accept that failure is always a risk
- operate with the assumption that teams that are skilled, empowered and motivated are more likely to succeed.
- Culture fit is a per team thing, if the team hates each other they won't work well no matter how much time and money you throw at it
Last thing isn't derived from the train of thought, just things I feel are true:
- Training and headcount is an investment that grows linearly over time, but can have exponential value. Retain people, not services.
- "you build it, you run it" will result in happier customers, faster pivoting. Don't adopt an application maintenance strategy
/rant2 -
Worst code I ever had to touch: a React application, createClass era, before redux was a thing, that had everything in one fucking component.
Every fucking thing.
This was a simple video chat application, but still. The component's code included:
- Views (contact list and video call screen) and logic to switch between them;
- All application state;
- API calls;
- Websocket message handling;
- WebRTC logic (getUserMedia and p2p streaming).
This app was built by one person in one month for a demo. That person left the company after the demo and I had to maintain that mess without zero React knowledge (I was doing angular at that time). On his last day he gave me a crash course and an overview of how the app worked.
Around that time I attended a few meetups and a conference with talks about React. That, my curiosity and ability to learn by refactoring helped me a lot when I had to add new features and fix bugs in that app.5 -
First off murphy is a bitch. Week started off good, nothing bad happening then friday night came and i get an email about a site being down. Ok check it out real quick, cert is expired. No real big deal just a 20 minute fix, didn't bother me that i didn't get an expiry alert. Now is where murphy decided to be the biggest fucking bucktoothed cocksucker, generate a csr for a wildcard domain using an existing key and sent it off when i get it back the private key doesn't match the cert. Again ok maybe i fucked up, generate a selfsigned cert no fucking problem. Contact support to see if they have an idea. Oh now is when it gets fun, the fucking dumbass preceded to tell me how i didn't know what i was doing and how i just had to generate a csr and private key at the same time after i explained to the bastard that I've already tested it with a selfsigned cert. (How does this fucker have a job) By now apparently i was pissed off enough to scare murphy's pansy ass away cause i told the fucker to refund my money, got a list of 30 subdomains and setup letsencrypt on it. Now the part on this that is fucking hilarious is that it took me damn near 24 hours to be called a fucking idiot from a guy that doesn't know his ass between a hole in the fucking ground and 30 minutes of being pissed off more than i have been since i took anger management classes in the 9th grade to say fuck it and switch.7
-
Linkedin message: Please add me to your contact list cause maybe in the future I will have job for you.
Me: Maybe in the future I will add you.3 -
so... not really a rant because i'm happy to be in the long-term zenlike state where i don't really give a fuck about anything anymore, but...
so today's my birthday (thanks in advance for all the semi-mandatory "cheers" reactions and such)
the agency i do temp jobs through sends money weekly (for the one week back) (which is the main and only reason i use them). they arrive at friday 12:25, so that's when i know to go "check" by withdrawing it, and it's also awesome because it's the best time to provide funds to reward myself (by booze/weed) at the end of the week.
last week, nothing came in. i called them and learned it was due to the contact person in the company i did job in being too late on sending the agency list of people who showed up at the work, i was told it's gonna arrive one week later together with the proper payment for the week-1,so effectively i was one week without any money (literally), but on the next week double was going to arrive, which is nice.
that next week of double was now. i found out that no double arrived, only single-value payment. i called them to ask why.
i was told that what arrived was the late payment, and the dude in company was again late with sending the presence list, so the other payment, for the proper week's work, will be a week late again.
so... that kinda ruined my financial planning tor tge week that's going to happen.
i guess my point (if i have any) is... funny how when someone fucks up, there's nobody for me to be angry at and hold responsible in any way, but when i have delays in my work due to delays upstream, nobody gives a shit about my excuses and it's my fault and i should have compensated, it was my responsibility and duty, and me not doing it (to my own detriment, for someone else) is me failing.
funny how the subjective dynamics of the world always somehow works out in a way where everyone else fucks up and i either have to suck it up and be okay with it otherwise i'm a selfish unreliable entitled asshole, or suck it up and extinguish their fire for them, otherwise i'm a selfish unreliable entitled asshole XD
anyone else noticed this in their life?
how does it work? what is the factor that decides whether you're in the "suck it up" class or the "fuck it, someone else will suck it up" class?
doesn't seem to (just) be the money(flow), i've seen this thing happen even in situations where the money/client dynamics were flowing the opposite way to what would be natural for the shit fall direction.4 -
Literally swear I despise flash. So, had a small job to update a page that consisted of a list of members, clicking on a members name will populate an adjacent div with 3 or 4 contact names. Simple stuff on the face of it.
However, it turned out the previous developer had decided to use flash for this, meaning there is a horrible .swf plonked into the page.
I mean seriously, why can't things be simple? :(2 -
So I've been really Ill the past few days, like litterly been in bed for two days, popping pills like there going out of fashion. I contact work and get the typical "get well soon" so I get a message today asking how I'm doing (still Ill), I said I'll be back Monday and ask if anything is urgent that needs to be done first thing. So I get a list:
Project A: Deadline Monday
Project B: final review Tuesday
Project C: Still waiting on feedback
So I ask any chance we can extend the deadlines by a day or so I have enough time to catch up even though I'm going to have to rush it as I've been off.
Answer.. nope there non negotiable.. oh
So they want basically three days work done in one day, given the fact I still might not be 100%. Jesus Christ 😂
Quick Edit, I wasn't told there were deadlines.8 -
I have saved my sister's contact number with the nickname. Few days back I've noticed that her surname is automatically added to the nickname. Today I've noticed that her nickname is replaced with her real name in my Android mobile.
When I checked my contact list I noticed that there are 2 contacts, one with nickname, another with her real name.
Is this a new trick Google playing?13 -
Hello! My name is opalqnka and I am a Windows user.
I followed the 12-step program and now I am a step away to being certified LPIC Linux Engineer.
As step 12 preaches, here I humbly share the Program:
1. We admitted we were powerless over Windows - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of Linus as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to Linus, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. We’re entirely ready to have Linus remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through bash scripting and kernel troubleshooting to improve our conscious contact with Linus as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to Windows users and to practice these principles in all our affairs.4 -
Linkedin is known from displaying invasive corporate advertisements like join our cloud, and other picture title shit.
But it got worse.
From January I am invaded by contribute to this article crap and get some badge. Powered by some artificial intelligence shit.
From about a month or so I am seeing lots of suggestions on linkedin wall that look like content written by bots, and the posts are from real people, well morons from FAANG started showing up with their generated spam but that’s not all.
This week I started getting job offers that look like are written by chatgpt and not a real people. When I reply to this offer that it looks like it’s not from real person I am ghosted.
Those job offers are like 3 a day and I those are not only contacts but mostly a direct messages from premium account that costs 1000$ per month or more.
I feel like I’m in real world matrix.
But that’s not all.
I see lots of recriuters from my contact list are getting fired and looking for new job.
But that’s not all bitches !!!
I sometimes reply to some CEO and they delete posts and invite me to contacts just to ghost me.
I feel so disconnected I started to think all those people are all only bots and I am last living - real person that is not using AI to write something.
I think microsoft finally managed to kill this cash cow with their obsession about AI. Corporate shit is killing every good platform.
Hope for fediverse to take off with some news websites thinking about integration with fediverse.
Help me obi P2P nobi you’re my last torrent hope.
If p2p social networks won’t take off now it would be dead end.9 -
i have realised that a major portion of a human's life involves interaction with other people and most of the time, our happiness depends upon that situation.
so in a way having a group of people who you love and who loves you are important for you to be happy.
i recently realised there are not a single non blood related person in my contact list that i now feel for , even a bit. i recently went for a trip with friends which turned out to be very toxic, and i just realised, that those were my most trusted friends with the highest level of love and trust among my other 900 contacts.
now i don't wanna be with anyone. in a few days i will be 24, and i can't help but feel helpless and alone. Helpless, because people become toxic around me and alone coz i can't have non toxic people. this year started on a very high note for me since i got travelling a lot, got a good paying role that required less work and more relaxing time and , i started focusing on my body too.
so i got more carefree, started hanging out with people more, got more socially active. but then life gave me a slap on the face for enjoying it too much.
i don't know what i want now. i want happiness, but what will make me happy? i have no idea4 -
It realy just warms my heart when the customer provides us with software that I need to go through manually and test every method individual before we can start implement it. Then I have to spend hours testing every fucking bit of it to make sure the modules we control with said sw doesnt meet their untimely doom cause the sw is too broken to actually run.
Any.net developers on this plattform? If you doesnt use these xml comments for commenting methods, you're on my hit list.
I realy hate these back-alley developers. Sorry of I sound salty and whiny but seriously. These past 3 weeks, most of my time Ive just worked around issues instead of solving them, cause their sw just keeps chaining good coding down to the ground. And theres no documentation cause "we have higher priorities ", testing is done by us at release cause "its faster and we dont make mistakes" and worst of all, our contact quote on quote "senior experienced developer lead design im far up my own ass and way more experienced than you" guy is a consultant who is only reachable about 2h on a daily basis.
Tldr: we live in a society. -
Marketing Person: [email] The feature you worked on is setting our customers’s statuses to “transactional.” We can’t send them marketing emails.
😒🙄
Me: [email] My code is not doing that. It checks to see if a contact exists in our mailing list. If it does, it adds the contact to the new list that you requested. If it doesn’t, it creates a contact and adds it to the list. Newly created contacts default to “onboarding.” For already existing contacts, I’m just adding them to the list and I’m not changing anything else. Here’s a blog post from the marketing software company that explains how a contact could get marked as “transactional.”
Later in the day, Marketing comes over to my desk and brings over the Product Manager. He asks the same question. 😡 Oh hell no. You do not create a gang up on me and hope the social pressure changes my answer.
Me: Like I wrote in my email, my code isn’t wrong and it’s not malfunctioning. It’s doing what you requested: add users who submit their email on x form to the new x list. In the marketing software, you can even check each contact and see when their status got changed to “transactional.” It wasn’t from my code.
I really hate marketing sometimes. Especially when they think they know how my code works. Excuse me, do you have access to our git repo? Can you read the code and point out the supposed problem? I didn’t think so. So don’t go accusing me of making a mistake or doing my job wrong.4 -
Im having a sort of dilema. I recently started taking freelance work for web developement (and design ack) and Im uncomfortable with the state of the industry. Ill explain: Say if I bid a client for a simple 1-3 page site w contact form (a new page, not migration) My suggestion is to use djangocms, django, or just static html/css/js (ie bootstrap), which produces clean, fairly secure, and fast sites. Of course I can throw a templated unoriginal wordpress site together in a few hours 2 days latest, so I offer that option as a sidenote on the bid, charging almost 2x more. For some reason I dont understand they choose the wp shitshow. I explain all the reasons that not the way to go( which I wont list, if u dont know, u never used it. google up) but they dont care abt the details, they rather pay more for shit job. OFC I reluctantly deliver what they want, but as a result my portfolio is full of unoriginal shit Im not happy showing off. I have a few sites Ive done on the side my prefered way, but they not deployed and sit in my github for all intents n purposes unviewable to potential clients.
I want to be proud of my portfolio, and it to be a representation of what Im capable of. BUT, I gotta eat, and work is better than no work.
There are so many "wordpress designers" oversaturaring the field and it lowering the overall standard of what we are capable of. I just begining my dev journey, but if I cant have a body of work Im proud of, theres no way I can see doing this the rest of my life, and that makes me really sad. My love of developing, coding, and IT/computers in general drove me to change careers from audio engineering to web development, and the fact that this fucking mr. potatoe head of a CMS is slowly turning that love into hate really pisses me off. So Im ending this !rant looking for hope.
Your thoughts?1 -
Im fucking fed up with overbloated "all in one" ORMs.
For shit I cant find simple ORM that would literally just do fucking CRUD for me.
Thats all I require for some small project, yet still for few tables I have 2 choices:
a) do it without ORM and write models with raw SQL (which I usually end up doing, as its just more fault tolerant and works better)
b) install overloaded ORM that I wont use even 1% of features
Guys, why the fuck nobody created anything small, tiny and yet usefull? I know my SQL sucks and that is reason I want to use ORM in the first place. But when Im just forced?
Best what I found in terms of ease of use, and beeing not too heavy was RedBeanPHP.
A freaking ORM that will create database on the fly. It's awesome, sure. It's usefull, sure.
BUT STILL ALL I NEED IN SMALL PROJECT IS 1% OF THAT FUNCTIONALITY.
Does literally every single ORM dev want to feel their dick when they list out features list?
There should be allways proper tool for proper job. Its like using symfony for creating onepage website with contact form. WTF.13 -
Why do all my scammers on telegram say on telegram that they're currently chatting on business account and if you can add them on private? Is it so that they can see more info about you since you have them in your contact list and see how willing / naive you are? I always play the game along and did once added it to my WhatsApp. Maybe that's the reason why I had two human phone calls by scammers now. They labeled you as "easy" and now send the heavy weight scammers to you I guess. Recently, I got a call from PayPal, automated, and they said some suspicious thing was going on at my account and that they want to verify a big purchase. I do have my card attached - so, who knows. Sounded realistic but already was sus ofc. I had to press one to talk to someone. I did, why not. So then I got some Indian or do on the line saying bought iPhone blablabla and I was like. Yeah sure.. I wanted to play the game along to find out what the scam was - but his English had such huge accent that I've just hung up the phone.
It's impossible to find out how scam works, they always notice at a certain point I'm scamming them.
But because of going far into these games, I think I'm on some easy list and that's the reason I've encounter so many. So just playing the game along isn't without consequences.
I've teached my scammer using a translator I had just now how to properly scam dutch people. Don't be that formal, that word is outdated and also, dutch people can't speak Dutch at all. So if quality of dutch has a certain level you know they want smth from you. If AI did beat us in one thing it's languages I guess. It can even speak Gen z and formal and informal14 -
Welp. I think I witnessed a new job application hack. Someone listed my team’s general engineering email address for their Employee Referral.
That email address is listed publicly, but I’m pretty sure no one on my team told the applicant to list it as a referral contact. I suspect someone got the email from a Slack workspace. I had posted a job listing, in a threaded comment someone had complimented my employer’s public API, and I shared our engineering email and said we’d love to see what he builds.
It looks like someone else from that Slack saw this and decided to list the engineering email as an employee referral. I get that employee referral can mean different things to different people and it might be someone who’s new to job searching and doesn’t know better.
For my employer’s online application, an employee referral requires a name and email address for the employee. I’m curious what the applicant listed for the employee referrer’s name. Wonder if it was my name. If it is, guess I have to give my manager a heads up and tell him that I do not know this applicant.
This occurrence is a new one for me and I don’t think it’s happened to us before. And it’s not really a good tactic to get a resume read at my workplace. Where I work, my manger reviews the resumes and tells HR who he wants to set up calls with. It’s not HR or an ATS that screens resumes and sends them to my manager. -
Hello everyone, looking for some career advice here.
First of let me list my credentials off here. I graduated in 2016 with a BS in Computer Science. While I was working on my degree I worked as an engineering for 3 years in a cell phone repair company. What this entailed was managing/reverse engineering a software solution of one of that companies vendors, writing documentation etc (it started as a summer internship and became a job that I worked full time over Summers and up to 30/week in the school year).
Anyway, the vendor I acted as a point of contact offered me a job before I graduated and I started with them in May 2016 as a junior most Dev. Since then I have have maintained the same job tittle (software developer), however my duties have increased.
Currently I maintain several of our build servers, manage software releases (as in I am the lead developer of this application) for the service that makes 90% of this companies money, and am the subject matter expert for everything regarding smartphone diagnostics. I've literally been entrusted with access to all of the company servers for if something goes wrong. I'm also training our newest developers and being told I'm doing a good job at doing so.
Currently with my job on a day to day basis I'm working with Java, Android, C++, Golang, MongoDB, iOS in Objective C, and Python
(Please note this is a small company of less than 50 people)
Currently I'm only being paid 60k USD and am wondering if I should hold out for a raise or consider looking for a better job? ( Please note I live in the east coast in an area where the cost of living isn't absurd).
Because this job was practically handed to me I don't know what to expect and feel imposter syndrome as I think I deserve better pay but think I don't have enough years experience. All advice is welcome4 -
Cable/Internet outage. Tried to contact ISP (Mediacom, who are awful)... Reported outage over an hour ago, but no update.
So, I figure it's time to call then...
In support app, selected "Call someone now." Selected sevices. Drop-down for "Tap down arrow for list"... contains the single placeholder "Tap down arrow for list". Plus, of course, you cannot submit the form without making a selection from the list.
Fuck your fucking support app right in the java-hole, Mediacom.
I did not need any more reasons to hate you - you are already at the top of my list, with no one else remotely close behind.3 -
Snapchat is now showing ads mixed in with, and at the top of the list of, your contacts. That’s in addition to the un-removable “Team Snapchat” contact, and a ChatGPT-2 model “My AI” that is permanently fixed to the top of your contacts list and once told me that some completely random politician, who was not even in the race at any point, won the 2024 general election.
Snapchat, I realize your business model was never designed to be profitable but FUCK you for dying in such an annoying way.4 -
Story Time.
I used to live in a hostel meant for professionals with two strangers in 2017, back when my salary was way too low to rent a flat on my own.
One afternoon I was just sitting around and looked at my contacts list which were about 50-60 people in total.
I started selecting people whom I hadn't spoken to for more than 6 months, and it was almost all of them except 2-3 people which were my brother, mom and dad.
Then I hit the delete button, I guess out of anger or me feeling lonely at the time. I wanted to see who remembers me or tries to reach out, given that I don't have their number.
And all these years later, it's still 2 people who I have in my phone contacts list. My mom and dad.
Since then, I am super exclusive to adding anyone's phone number to my list. I usually save their contact and start a chat on Whatsapp and delete their contact after for 6 months or more. When someone does text, I read their previous chat to remember who they are.
People come and go, but a corner of my mind wishes for that person who makes it into the list.
I kinda feel a little broken as I am typing this, but idk it might be the loneliness kicking in, idk. It is what it is.4 -
How do all you other devs deal with sleep? Because I am losing my fucking mind I work for myself so I don't go to work at 9am leave at 6pm.
I normally work until 6am and then sleep till 12 drink 3 strong coffee to start functioning again try and do something productive which at the moment involves catching up on the NBA playoffs and then starting work at 6pm.
Due to resent baby I thought shit my life is fucked I haven't left the house in 3 days I need structure routine I need to work 9am to 6pm become human again but I just can't FUCKING sleep it's now 1:30am and I'm trying to sleep.
I know what your thinking why are you on devRant but I've been trying to sleep for the past 3 hours but all I can think about is work code, refactoring, new languages, security, support shit that can wait but I can't get it out my head, keep thinking "ah your not tired you could work", and YES I have a list which get bigger every day wish I had a drug dealer or was still in contact with my old mates so I could get some Valium but it's hot milk and sleeping tablets for me, life is so much easier when you can just fuck of home at the end of the day and forget about work, not having your laptop next to you trying to trick you into opening it. How do other people who work for theirselves deal with the life work balance?4 -
*tried to install latest intel GPU driver on a notebook*
Intel: this driver isn't design for your system please contact your device manufacturer
*Check again the compatibility list ... The CPU is present*
Me: okay, let's try this one, using display driver uninstaller to clean the old driver, reboot and launch the new one.
Intel: This program will install the new component graphic driver Intel®
Me: Well ... I guess I win this time ?
Still don't know why the previous one seems to block any installation of I don't manually clean it.
My previous version doesn't seems to be specific to anything ...1 -
First contact with XEN.
Xen Orchestrator UI / Web, logged in first time...
Wow. The UI is a big giant mess...
I don't care for this fucking bling bling shit... Need to have an overview of all VMs.
Oh Lord... Wtf... Icon hell...
Hm, I need more detailed information... Ah. Found the button.
Pressed button.
Wtf... What's taking so long...
Bloody shit.... Why does it include real data diagrams of usage statistic per row????!!! (had pagination set to 100 rows, one row is one VM)...
Bloody christ, ain't no option to configure that monstrosity... Export function?... Nope... Great. This will be a giant fuckfest...
Rest API? Nope.... Non existent as it seems. Thought that would be common in the 21st century... Guess what, nope.
Further googling...
Oh interesting. An cli client in NPM?
Hm, pretty scarce documentation...
Poked it a bit... Got first results...
xo-cli --list-objects type=VM
...
Let's take a look...
Oh JSON. Gooooooo(d)....
Wow. The document structure looks like someone puked out alphabet soup...
Or maybe the dev had hemorrhagic fever and was suffering from delusion and blood loss.
After this... More than devastating experience...
I took a look at Proxmox REST API.
Sweet jesus. That's like... Stone Age to 23rd century. Oo
https://pve.proxmox.com/pve-docs/...
Seriously... It seems not so hard to define an API to get the data of all VMs... Without suffering a traumatic brain injury.1 -
I have table assets with field person of contact and table contacts with all fields related where I want to extract Join the [First Name] and [Last Name] and Capture as [Person of Contact] from [ID] related to each customer I want to list the person of contacts! I am so new into this world teach me <SQL>